midnight CX

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ppereira
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midnight CX

Post by ppereira »

Well, I guess I'll kick things off. Apparently none of us has anything to say about Gateway Hills CX! After a couple of weeks of weird bike stuff that I felt affected me a bit during races and cost me time, today was the complete opposite, I was on. It helped that I took it easy with other riding this week too, as the combo of training and racing over the past few weeks was making my legs feel a bit lifeless. I didn't get to preride, which was a first, but wasn't overly worried knowing a lot of the terrain and such. I was staged 76th, so the first lap was especially slow going through some bottlenecks. My barrier game was solid today, I was able to use those to start to get past some guys that way, and the little uphill section was especially favorable, as I was able to put some good power to get past people before entering back into the grass (seemed like I hit 700w on every lap on points of that little climb). So I was able to get past a good number of folks along the way, and didn't do anything too silly to slow myself down. In the end, finished 56/83, my best outcome so far. Would love to work my way up to a better seeding to not have to deal with bottlenecks as much (my first lap time was 8:51, whereas my last lap seems to be my best at 8:04), but I'm having a ton of fun this year and always a pleasure to ride with so many other MRC folks.
strat
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Re: midnight CX

Post by strat »

I was in the same race as Phil (Cat 4 open - no 40+ options) along with Mike Fowler, AJ, Varoujan, Delta Brian, Kyle and Emmanuel...nice MRC representation. First time at Midnight for me, course very similar to the MRC race but in the other direction. 3 power sections, 2 sets of barriers, the cow sheds and the hard packed sand.
I was staged in the 3rd row and got a decent start, passed a few folks during the first lap and was sitting in the top 20. Got caught out in the cow shed on the wood chips and had the run wide on lap 1 but then the guy in front of be slid out so I made the position back up! Second lap was uneventful, things started to settle down and I was racing with a pack of about 4. The third lap was probably my best, I was able to pass everyone (4 people that is!) on the power section past the finish line and then hold position for 2/3 or the lap until I pushed too hard on the grassy knoll bit and washed out into the tape...urgh...3 of the 4 guys behind me got past and all the hard work went down the toilet! On the fourth lap I pulled a position back and was up with the other 3 again but had burnt most of my matches. Final lap came and I got passed on the second set of barriers by a strong runner up the hill...down the hill, through the mud and finished 16th (given that my number was 317 I'm going to tell myself that I beat the predictor by 1!).
Congrats to Briana on his podium finish in the Masters! Thanks to KT for the beers.
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Re: midnight CX

Post by Briana »

Another great race for me in the Masters 40+, apparently the blood doping regimen is starting to pay off ;-). My front row start was almost in jeopardy due to the announcer calling up groups of 10 in a start grid with only 8 rows, but I forced myself in front and center. I took the hole shot and led Mike Rowel, the Candidas twins, Brant Hornberger, Anthony Giguere and a host of other fast old guys half way through the first lap. Perfect timing, Rowel passes going into the chips and pulls us up the long gradual hill on the back side before the fun stuff on the hill. A group of 6 forms for the 2nd lap, I trade places a few times with Rowel for the lead but I'm never leading on the long hill (this is good). 3rd lap more of the same but we lose a Cadidas twin. 4th lap Brant is not happy with the group size and he's sitting in 5th. He crushes the long hill, I stay with him along with Anthony. 5th lap, Anthony is struggling to hang on as Brant pushes the pace, not only is Brant strong but he's got some decent technical skills too. Last lap I sit on Brant's wheel and plan my move, my subtle attempts to get by fail until the last corner before the pavement straight. I got by Brant on the inside and was 1st onto the straight, I was sprinting at at least 2600 watts :-) but couldn't hold Brant off at the line. A super fun race and I was happy to be on the 2nd step on the podium.

Brian A.
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fowleezy
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Re: midnight CX

Post by fowleezy »

I also raced the cat 4, I was just looking to have a clean race after having a few issues the last couple of weeks with dropped chains and riding through the tape, and I finally did. I got a second row start and got out of the gate pretty well, my plan was to try to stay with the front group, but they were too strong for me. I settled in to probably around 10th or 11th, after the first lap, but I was definitely hurting and I knew there was no way I was going to be able to make up too many spots. I felt like the course was pretty wide open and power driven with not too many spots to make moves or pass in the turns. On the last lap I passed a couple guys, including one guy who cursed at me because I passed in that section of tight turns when he had basically come to a complete stop, asking "Really man? Really? This is the place you are going to pass me?" I didn't say anything back but I did continue to pass him. I was a little annoyed because I would have made it around him without touching him but he stuck his elbow out to try to block me. I ended up finishing 7th which I was happy about because I don't think I could have done much better.

Serious question: What is the proper etiquette for passing/getting passed by people in cx races? It seems to primarily happen in the straightaways, but what about in turns? Is that frowned upon? It just seems like for someone like me (i.e someone who doesn't have the power of some of the other guys but can usually manage to brake a little less in the turns) that I am just hanging on in most of the straightaways and then I catch up and have to basically wait at the turns. Is the rule of thumb to just use your judgement and "pass when it's safe" or is there some other rules out there?
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JeremyC
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Re: midnight CX

Post by JeremyC »

fowleezy wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:54 am Serious question: What is the proper etiquette for passing/getting passed by people in cx races? It seems to primarily happen in the straightaways, but what about in turns? Is that frowned upon? It just seems like for someone like me (i.e someone who doesn't have the power of some of the other guys but can usually manage to brake a little less in the turns) that I am just hanging on in most of the straightaways and then I catch up and have to basically wait at the turns. Is the rule of thumb to just use your judgement and "pass when it's safe" or is there some other rules out there?
Pass anywhere you want/can. Sounds like he was being a baby...
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peterkuhn
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Re: midnight CX

Post by peterkuhn »

I find these things are more useful with a course map:

Image

I started the men's 3/4 race on the 4th or 5th row next to a guy who got let into a much better start position than his number allowed. People were joking with him about winning the holeshot from there, then someone called him Sam and I realized it was Sam Rosenholtz and he probably would win the holeshot from there. The gun went off and he went up about forty positions and my plan to hitch a ride on his wheel got a little compromised by the other dozen guys with the same plan.

The course felt super grippy running newly mounted wtb crossboss tubeless at 28psi, and the first lap or two I spend hunting positions. Since someone asked, there are usually a few corners on any course where people will really not go in as hot as they could and you can do a lot of passing even if you're not on the best line. For this race, that was the first turn after the finishing straight, the first turn into the Sand Zone (tm), and the turn from the Hill into the Sinuous Section, after which passing was much more difficult. You can also pass on running and barrier sections, although some are better for this than others.

By lap 3 or so I'm back up to Sam's group, and on the big power section up the Hill Cole from GLV puts in a big dig to pass the group and I hop on. Sam goes, "All right!! Now we're racing". I'm 10 bpm away from my max HR like HOW are you EVEN TALKING. Another cool thing about being near Sam's group is all the heckling/cheering you are subjected to by association. Anyway a lot of heaving and grunting later and I've passed Cole, who like me did a lot of making up for a poor start row, and am heading into the last lap with a large gap ahead and behind.

The RaceCF/Butcherbox group up ahead of me are far off, but the last time through the Mulchery I notice we're a lot closer now, and I punch it up the hill again to get on their wheel. This spooks the RaceCF dude I guess, who wisely gaps the Butcherbox guy, who I am stuck behind. I get by him on the barrier runup, but he has the inside line and chops me into the tape after the next turn where it narrows. I think this is cheap, but his coach or teammate on the sidelines thinks this is the Move Of The Year and is so stoked he's probably gonna start an ideas festival about it.

Anyway the RaceCF dude knows the deal at this point and uses his gap and a great sprint to take 5th, and I get the butcherbox guy at the line with a bike throw for an extremely satisfying 6th, two places after MRC's very own AJ Piper.
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Re: midnight CX

Post by Briana »

fowleezy wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:54 am Serious question: What is the proper etiquette for passing/getting passed by people in cx races? It seems to primarily happen in the straightaways, but what about in turns? Is that frowned upon? It just seems like for someone like me (i.e someone who doesn't have the power of some of the other guys but can usually manage to brake a little less in the turns) that I am just hanging on in most of the straightaways and then I catch up and have to basically wait at the turns. Is the rule of thumb to just use your judgement and "pass when it's safe" or is there some other rules out there?
Like Jeremy said pass anywhere you can and don't worry about it, you have to race aggressively in cross. I was leading the first lap of the Masters 40+ and a guy passed me on the inside going into the left at the 2 super tight turns by the pit. I was pissed and tried to pass him back in the tight turns which didn't work out so well for me, I slid out and had to put a foot down. Either way no harm was done but it was a dumb move on my part to try to pass him back there. He stayed in the lead group for the first lap and then faded to 15th or something like that. My advise for the Cat 4's is to practice race starts a lot. In the race pass as many as you can in the start straight, only half will pass you back throughout the race and you will gradually move up your starting position.

Brian A.
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Re: midnight CX

Post by chrismitchell »

First CX race of my career in the books and boy was it a doozie.

I predictably staged in the cheap seats, way in the back with a number of other first timers. It was nice getting up to the start line knowing that there were no expectations, it made things a bit more enjoyable as I tried to make my way through the pace cars in the back. As we were entering onto the grass for the first time off the front stretch, I found myself laughing at the chaos of everything going on around me. First lap was slow going as but eventually I made it into some clean air and found myself a racing buddy and hung with him for a majority of the race. At one point I passed a guy on the grass straight away after the sand section. He started to drift into my line but I squeezed by, after passing he tells me I might want to say something next time so he knows I'm there. Being that this was my first race, I filed this away for future races...The rest of the race was fairly uneventful and in the end I won the sprint to the line and finished in 24th place out of 69 ;) starters.

Deciding that one race wasn't enough punishment for me, I also signed up for the singlespeed open. I settled on a gear choice and ziptied my shifter. On the opening straight, spinning out like crazy, I immediately regretted my gear choice. There wasn't a lot of traffic on this start line which was nice. Everyone sprinted out without hesitation and I found myself racing hard from the start with a much more experienced group of riders. I passed a few on the front stretch and then started picking off people steadily as I went. Remembering my encounter from earlier I let a guy know that I'm going for a pass on his left. After trying and failing to pass, the guy tells me I might not want to call out my pass cause he'd just put me in the tape. Ironically this was the complete opposite of the feedback I received earlier. So in the end I'll just say nothing I guess... Settling into a groove I built up a pretty good gap to the guys behind me (~28/40?) and I was lining up a pass on the guy in front of me when I screwed up the dismount on the uphill barriers. I managed to make a nice save (as a spectator pointed out), only to have my boa on my left shoe let go at the same time. I jump the barrier and pull over to sort out my shoe... not happy. I run up the rest of the hill (my gap almost entirely gone now) and hop back on my bike... I start cranking immediately, only to hear a loud pop from my drivetrain as I was assaulted by my seat. Rounding the corner, I. Was. Pissed. I let out a loud grunt/yell which surely had people looking at me like I was crazy (as if the hot pink bike didn't already have people wondering). Despite the commotion I held my position, only to flat a half lap later. Oh well, first race was the one that counted, but I still wish the second one went better.

Looking forward to my next race, in the mean time, I'll be getting my CX bike setup tubeless :)
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Mkidd3
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Re: midnight CX

Post by Mkidd3 »

Nice work all!! Wish I could have made it this weekend!

Fowler, exactly what these guys are saying. Make the pass where you know you'll pass. Call it out too, I have no problem telling guys that either coming out of the turn or in the straight I'm passing on their left or right. If they don't move, screw 'em and blow their doors off.
strat
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Re: midnight CX

Post by strat »

Briana wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 11:55 am
fowleezy wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:54 am Serious question: What is the proper etiquette for passing/getting passed by people in cx races? It seems to primarily happen in the straightaways, but what about in turns? Is that frowned upon? It just seems like for someone like me (i.e someone who doesn't have the power of some of the other guys but can usually manage to brake a little less in the turns) that I am just hanging on in most of the straightaways and then I catch up and have to basically wait at the turns. Is the rule of thumb to just use your judgement and "pass when it's safe" or is there some other rules out there?
Like Jeremy said pass anywhere you can and don't worry about it, you have to race aggressively in cross. I was leading the first lap of the Masters 40+ and a guy passed me on the inside going into the left at the 2 super tight turns by the pit. I was pissed and tried to pass him back in the tight turns which didn't work out so well for me, I slid out and had to put a foot down. Either way no harm was done but it was a dumb move on my part to try to pass him back there. He stayed in the lead group for the first lap and then faded to 15th or something like that. My advise for the Cat 4's is to practice race starts a lot. In the race pass as many as you can in the start straight, only half will pass you back throughout the race and you will gradually move up your starting position.

Brian A.
Glad this (passing etiquette) question came up as I'm relatively new to the sport too. In my limited experience I've only received positive comments when I've successfully passed someone in tight sections...I suspected that as long I wasn't placing them in danger then it's all fair game (that and the fact that I'm not contesting a podium spot!). Sometimes it's a case of pass or get passed too when things are bunchy. I've fallen victim of many a fluffed passing move too when they overcook it and end up wiping out in front of you! Solid advice from Brianna on perfecting the start...things get strung out pretty quick after the start straight and then it requires a lot of effort to make up positions...that and many fade away after putting in a hot first lap!
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Re: midnight CX

Post by rusto »

If you want to call out a pass (and you don’t have to), be sure you can pull it off definitively. Dont bother givinig a heads up if you are in doubt.

In the end, the limit of your responsibility is to not crash the other racer out. Its a RACE after all.

If you are in a race with combined fields and are passing someone from that other category or are lapping someone, a heads up is the right thing to do.
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dantelman
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Re: midnight CX

Post by dantelman »

Not sure there are any official rules on overtaking another rider..I've had people pass me on the inside of a turn, as long as there is space and they don't cut me off, I have no issue. Similarly, you can pass in turns, as long as you ride a predictable line. I've not seen any instance where someone protested a result because someone cut them off and they lost 1/2 a second. Often the best place to pass is exiting the turn, (right KT?) that is where you can power out of the turn. One of the courses in PA (whirlybird) used to have a pinwheel, and people would pass in the pinwheel.
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Re: midnight CX

Post by dantelman »

Here is a good article about passing...
https://www.cxmagazine.com/cyclocross-p ... ue-tuesday
The videos are entertaining...
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pace21
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Re: midnight CX

Post by pace21 »

I heard it somewhere and it sums it up nicely:

“Pass on the exit of the turn not the entry, unless it’s the last lap”

Pretty much sums up my approach. Also I’m a huge fan of the leave-an-intentional-gap-and-close-it-through-the-corner. Assuming you are holding on for dear life while drafting on a straightaway it lets you:

1) get a small rest while coasting pre-corner and letting the gap develop
2) accelerate through the turn
3) exit the turn with a positive speed differential and stay on the gas to pass them

Either this will gap them, or maybe they dig to close the gap but now you are leading and can gap them in the next corner. If they come BACK around you after you execute 1-3 above, well, that just means they are better than you lol
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eboos
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Re: midnight CX

Post by eboos »

Cat 5

During staging I talked to Raffaele Melidone from Fritz, and joked about how he will end up passing me with about 1/3 of the race to go. Started 4th row, although my call up should have placed me in the third. Was chatting with Adrian Servetnick before the start (don't listen to his self deprivation, he is faster then he leads on). On the start I realize the guy in front of me is holding me back, but there wasn't much of an opportunity to get around him until we get to the long left that leads into the muddy area. I gain a bunch of positions through the sandy area, and am still joking and laughing with some other guys. Through the mulchery I start to settle in on my pace, and pass a few who were struggling with traction. The sinuous area became my favorite area for passing, but I was terrible at the uphill barriers.

Second lap, Raffaele passes me in the beginning of the sandy area, and as always shouts words of encouragement. I reply "it's too early for you to pass me!" I end up passing him before the end of the sandy area. Passing the finish, the lap cards are out and there are two to go.

Third lap, I end up getting passed by Adrian, Chris Mitchell and two other guys, one wearing a green jersey whom I thought was Raffaele. I try to keep them within striking distance through the sinuous area, manage to pass one, but couldn't close it down on the others. I think I could hear Brian Haugli yelling something like "get up there, you have a team mate!" I was trying.

Last lap, I am fading, but somehow still made it my fastest lap. The wonky tight tree section I never quite figured out, and I ended up scootering through it. I get passed on the hill leading to the sinuous section, but retake through the corners. Had pretty much nothing left for the uphill barriers, but fortunately that didn't matter. All I know is there is a green jersey in front of me, and I do not think I will be able to catch him. Barely with the legs to pedal further, I cross the finish without changing position. Had a great gathering off the course afterwards just trying to recover. Turns out that the guy in green was not Raffaele, and when I passed Raffaele in the second lap he never regained position (first victory over him). 30/69.
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michaelcole
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Re: midnight CX

Post by michaelcole »

pace21 wrote: Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:19 pm I heard it somewhere and it sums it up nicely:

“Pass on the exit of the turn not the entry, unless it’s the last lap”

Pretty much sums up my approach. Also I’m a huge fan of the leave-an-intentional-gap-and-close-it-through-the-corner. Assuming you are holding on for dear life while drafting on a straightaway it lets you:

1) get a small rest while coasting pre-corner and letting the gap develop
2) accelerate through the turn
3) exit the turn with a positive speed differential and stay on the gas to pass them

Either this will gap them, or maybe they dig to close the gap but now you are leading and can gap them in the next corner. If they come BACK around you after you execute 1-3 above, well, that just means they are better than you lol
All of what he said.^^^
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michaelcole
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Re: midnight CX

Post by michaelcole »

Late post to this thread. I raced 50+ with a few other Minutemen. Typical start, no holeshot possible from the 3rd row and I always get stuck behind a slow starter. Moved up a few spots in the first section of twistys. Had a few back and forth position changes with Mosher and a group of 3 others but mostly stayed just about the same until the last lap where I moved up a bit. Finished an acceptable 19th but was a bit disappointed because I really thought I was several spots closer to the front than that. I'm just happy that I've gotten enough fitness back to be back in the front half of the races this year.
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